Unedited Transcript

Jim Rembach: (00:00)
Okay, B2B, DM gang. I have somebody on the show today. Who’s going to help us with something. That’s going to advance your prospects further down the sales cycle and hopefully close them. Uh, and it’s all based in conversations, but not in the way that you think Eric Burgess is actually the CEO of an organization that helps to make things more clear. So those conversations can happen. And he’s going to get into that in a second. Uh, and so the name of his company is called blue leap. And I had the opportunity to meet Eric probably about a year and a half ago when we had a discussion about some of these technologies that currently exist out there. And he does a lot of work with B to C organizations. However, what we know is happening is that we have the opportunity as digital marketers to take what has been successful in the BTC world and start to leverage more and more of those things in the B to B world. So Eric, welcome to the show.

Eric Burgess: (00:51)
Thanks, Jim. We appreciate, appreciate you having me today.

Jim Rembach: (00:54)
I’m glad you’re here. Now, if you could give people a little bit of a background about, you know, B2B, digital marketing and your connection to it and how your expertise is going to impact a B2B digital marketer today.

Eric Burgess: (01:07)
Sure. I think you kind of talked about it already then. Um, so if you think of my background, I’ve worked for years and, um, you know, with large global companies, um, in not just in the marketing space, but the outbound call center space sales, um, as well as, um, uh, the customer support space. And, you know, I think, uh, what’s happening is we’re seeing, um, uh, communication channels merge. Um, people are getting used to certain ways to communicate and it’s spilling over if you will, for, into their, um, business life from their personal life. Right. And you can kind of think about it a little bit. Like, um, you know, years ago, call centers were call centers because people use phones and that’s just not really kind of the way it is anymore. Um, even in their personal life, um, people are doodling theirs, they’re taking pictures, they’re doing voice snippets, they’re taking pictures of their food and sending it to their friends.

Eric Burgess: (02:11)
I mean, this is all digital conversations that are happening. And so, you know, the way we look at it is it’s not just happening on the consumer side or when businesses deal with their customers, but it’s also happening on the B to B side as well, because your B2B people that you’re marketing to are the same people that are communicating with pictures, snippets, videos, and that kind of stuff with their friends. So I guess, I mean, we always feel that you ought to really be talking to your customers or your potential customers the way friends do

Jim Rembach: (02:44)
Well. I think that’s a really interesting point. And so when you start talking about, um, you know, driving digital conversations and doing a digitally, even when I start thinking about a long sales cycle, um, for a lot of the people that have to support that, um, that listened to the podcast, is it, isn’t oftentimes just one person that’s being interacted with. Sometimes it’s several different team members. There’s a whole lot of complexity that can go into, you know, a B to B sale. Uh, so w when I start thinking about that and how most organizations approach it, it’s typically just one contact that lead, and then it doesn’t necessarily go down any particular path. So if you, it, can you give us some visibility and understanding into what a conversational communication path might look like for a B2B digital marketer?

Eric Burgess: (03:33)
Sure. So, um, you know, I think to some extent it, um, it, you know, the bread and butter of it really is, uh, somewhat the same. In other words, you know, you start out, you start trying to do marketing qualified leads, right? You’re trying to, you’re trying to qualify your lead from a marketing standpoint. So are they reading your content? Is this prospect coming to your site? Um, you know, and, and with the hope of, um, can you get this person to the point where they’re willing to do kind of a discovery call with the sales team? Right. But, um, I, you know, the way we, what we have now though, is we really have the ability when we’re marketing to and nurturing that B to B lead to start off in the same, as I said, the typical same way. Maybe it’s an email touch.

Eric Burgess: (04:20)
Maybe it’s something like that. Maybe they’ve read some of your content, but then we can bring in videos, images, messaging, other things to kind of draw your prospect in to the way you, you know, the way they’re typically used to communicate. And what we’re seeing when you do that is the pipeline sales cycles shorten and throughput improves, right? So as we’re doing that nurturing campaign, um, you know, we try to get focused on how can we nurture in an interactive and more conversational way versus just pure, uh, static emails or things like that. You know, the con the idea is we want to be get very, very personal with our customers and our prospects, so they’re comfortable enough. And, and they, um, you know, eventually purchase something from us. Okay.

Jim Rembach: (05:18)
And so then for me, as you’re talking, I started thinking about account based marketing. I started thinking about, um, you know, marketing automations. And I started thinking about all of that. So how is what you’re seeing and what you do with your expertise, make all of that work better.

Eric Burgess: (05:35)
So, uh, in terms of, um, you know, marketing automation, I, you know, I tend to think most people probably have the concept of marketing automation is that we’re sending out emails, right? I mean, that’s been the traditional feel of it, if you will. Um, you know, we’re engaging people with emails, we’re hoping they’ll respond to those emails. Maybe we’re asking them questions and things like that about those emails, but it’s, it’s for us. It’s a little more than that. We look at it as not just engaging people with emails, but how are we going to engage them in an interactive way to get them to respond and give us an information? I mean, what we’re trying to really understand is what’s their behavior, right? What’s their behavior, as it relates to our, um, content and the information we’re providing, and then how are we interpreting that behavior and mapping that back to our sales process, right.

Eric Burgess: (06:36)
In our marketing and qualification process. Cause remember it’s not so much the point about how we feel about our processes, it’s how our customer or our prospects feel about our processes. Right. And, and so, um, you know, because of that, that, in terms of the way we’re viewing marketing automation, we’re going to want it. We try to add more interactive components to it. Maybe it’s sending information over messaging channels. Maybe it’s bringing people in for a group discussion in a Facebook group, you know, whatever it is to bring people together, um, or interact with you real time. So you can continue to drive that prospect through the decision making process, um, to, you know, to the point where they’re ready to make a decision for their business.

Jim Rembach: (07:30)
Okay. So then I would dare to say, when you start thinking about that whole for better use of words, the journey that prospects are going through, um, I think there are some important elements that you’re really alluding to is that there has to be, uh, data points along the way to help you understand where you may need to make adjustments or where you need to make, um, you know, totally, uh, maybe an elimination of a particular aspect of it, you know, and those are, those are possible acceleration points, right? So what, what I hear a lot is that people have access to analytics, but they don’t use the analytics. So when you start talking about clients that you’re working with, what are they doing with the analytics, that’s going to differentiate them from everyone else.

Eric Burgess: (08:18)
So, uh, one thing we do, we try to do with analytics or basically even help our customers do is, um, because you know, our product really kind of works in the interaction layer. So we’re a conversational component, whether it’s, you know, support or marketing or whatever, we’re a conversational support, uh, component of the digital journey. And, um, you know, what we’re trying to do is we’re recording behaviors okay. Around, um, uh, around that conversation. We’re trying to figure out how fast they’re responding, because there’s insight into that, right? Maybe they’re responding quickly, um, how fast they’re going to consume our videos or our images, or how they’re interacting with maybe their peers. Um, you know, a lot of companies do, you know, can track, you know, are they sharing their emails internally or others, opening emails, things like that. We can do the same thing with messaging and, uh, you know, SMS is an other digital faster, uh, communication mechanisms.

Eric Burgess: (09:20)
And those, um, typically we’ll go to some sort of data Lake. Okay. The customers that I think are really paying attention to how consumers are not just conversing, but the behaviors. Um, when I say consumers, I mean, business consumers are behaving with, um, and interacting with that digital journey. You’re helping them through. Um, when they, when they get focused on these are the toll Gates we have in place to verify this journey is happening. And here are the insights we expect when I see customers do that. Um, that does two things. One, it, it takes the emotion out of it. So if I’m have specific toll Gates in place that I’m tracking, it’s not going to be left up to me, or I’m a marketer. I think everybody’s a valid lead, right. They’re not. And, um, but the other thing it’s gonna do is really help us.

Eric Burgess: (10:18)
Uh, like you said, it’s disqualified as much as qualified and we’ll start to see common behaviors among people. And we can start to also build the build behavior profiles within our data Lake and our analytics system. So we can do, we can get predictive, right. And the companies that are getting predictive that are using analytics to drive decision making, um, that kind of thing, those, the company, those companies that we work with tend to see, we tend to see leaner pipelines. We tend to see more. Um, but they’re, they’re a little bit more leaner, but they’re realistic. And now an organization on the say on the marketing side and the sales side, and the CEO can make decisions around that. Right. Cause they can trust the data coming in. They can trust where somebody is in the, in the process and they can all stay, also understand that, you know, we can expect things to close and here’s how they will close. So that kind of settles down and takes a lot of ambiguity out of. And I shouldn’t say ambiguous, it’s also just emotional wishful thinking out of how we’re going to manage that. Um, you know, that pipeline and that customer through their journey to a buy.

Jim Rembach: (11:36)
I think what you’re mentioning right, there is one of the things that I see as a major bone of contention. I mean, I even find it with my own clients, right. Um, is that they’re not quite aware of all the nuance and all of, you know, the, the moving parts and components and all of this, you know, automation, they don’t get into that and don’t understand it. And they shouldn’t, um, start injecting all of their emotional feelings into it. Like, Hey, I wouldn’t do that. Or, Hey, I don’t like that, or Hey, but then ultimately it’s the data that says, you know, that’s, that’s not the important point here. Right. It’s whether or not,

Eric Burgess: (12:13)
No, I mean, you’re, you’re, you’re exactly right. And, and you know, it, you know, I work with companies and, and even with our own right. Um, I can tell when we’re, you know, somebody said, I think years ago there was a book called hope is not a strategy and it, and it’s, and it’s really not, but we need to, I think though the thing we can do today is we can build that th that customer journey such that if it’s never going to be completely void of emotion, okay. It’s just not, but we can build it such that it can challenge us. It will challenge each and every lead and then hopefully sales qualified opportunity that comes into our pipeline. And it will force us, as you said to, um, you know, disqualify, because quite frankly, in my experience, even when I was, you know, doing, you know, heavy duty making phone calls and knocking on doors, um, disqualification is probably even more important than qualification.

Jim Rembach: (13:18)
Yeah. Definitely. Apathy. You want to eliminate, I either want to yes. Or I want to know, so that right.

Eric Burgess: (13:23)
As fast as possible.

Jim Rembach: (13:25)
Okay. So when I start thinking about everything that you had talked about and everything that you’ve touched and all the experiences that you’ve had, I mean, it’s been everything from the support side to the marketing side, to the sales side. I mean, there’s a lot of different elements and aspects. Also, we’ve had a massive, you know, shift and acceleration in a lot of these technologies before we started recording, we talked about artificial intelligence and all of that. Right. But when I start thinking about where you yourself kind of have a little bit of sparkle and a passion and all of this, where is it?

Eric Burgess: (13:58)
Um, what we, what my passion is, is really, um, helping customers take, uh, some, uh, you know, look at their business process and use our application to help automate some of it. So it’s taking some of the manual uh riggermerall if you will, out of inbound and outbound calling processes. Okay. And, you know, a lot of people have talked about, uh, you know, RPA, robotic, uh, automation thing, process automation, things like that as being okay, we’re going to automate everything, right. And we’re just going to have a lights out room where people will call in, you know, you know, your voice will be translated and transcribed, and then we’ll do stuff and that’s just not going to happen. Um, you need people, people buy people, people don’t buy from even, you know, even if you’re buying from an, you know, at the Apple store, right.

Eric Burgess: (14:59)
You’re still, you know, you still deal with people from Apple all the time. Um, and so because of that, um, we don’t, we think that it’s never going to just completely be automated, but there are ways to help the agents. There are ways to help the company. There are ways to help the marketers get through there and through that. And that involves when it looks at AI that involves things like sentiment analysis. Right. We do a lot of that looking at sentiment as it’s changing during the email process and the chat process and the phone call process, and anything else, if we see sediment changing now, how do we get it back on the rails? Right. If something’s going off the rails, how do we get it back on? You know, so we’re using AI strategically, not as a silver bullet, not as a fix all, not as a a hundred percent automation capability, but we’re using it strategically to help, um, agents and business people, you know, make better decisions.

Jim Rembach: (15:59)
Well, you may have answered my next question because I always want to look at some things that are just kind of getting blown out of proportion and seem to be, you know, glamorized and all that. So what do you think right now is being overrated?

Eric Burgess: (16:14)
Well, I mean, it’s kind of interesting. So, um, I mean, I, I do think AI is somewhat overrated. It’s misunderstood. It’s been written about, um, I haven’t, it’s the promise of it’s been written a lot about it, but I haven’t seen, um, uh, many proof points. I think one of the reasons is, is because with AI, it really does highlight garbage in, garbage out. If your data is not clean, if it’s not good, if it’s not collected well, if it’s not scrubbed, it’s not going to get you. And you’re, you’re just not going to be able to operate using AI. Right. I mean that, uh, you know, a lot of people you’ve heard over the years, right? We’ve got to scrub our data. I mean, anytime you go into a CRM, any company’s CRM, they’ll say we’ve got a scrub our data, right. Um, it, with AI that magnifies that problem by 10. And so when I listen to people who are actually the people coding the AI and things like that, when I listened to these engineer, guys that I’m not near as smart as, um, the, the main, one of their main issues, they say stands in the way of companies really realizing, um, uh, some of the promises of AI is dirty data.

Jim Rembach: (17:34)
Well, even when you say that, uh, and when I start thinking about just the past 10 years of business in general, um, that acceleration of dirty data is increasing at an ever increasing rate.

Eric Burgess: (17:45)
Uh, it’s just, it’s just unbelievable. And you know, it it’s, it’s really started out. Um, I think, you know, it, it’s, it started out with, uh, you know, companies are, a lot of times organizations are chasing that next project. They’re trying to get the next thing checked off the list. And while it’s a laudable goal, um, sometimes what happens is, um, we forget to do things like, uh, field level validation, the boring stuff, right? The boring stuff that makes our lives easier. And I, and I hate to sound like a data person because I just, you know, I, I don’t like hearing from data people either that you have to slow down, but sometimes you do. Um, and so, uh, you know, having that, you know, there’s a cultural shift that needs to happen in organizations around their data to really make, um, AI really sing and Homme, if you will.

Eric Burgess: (18:45)
The other thing that I think needs to happen too, is, um, organizations still are very siloed even in the call center, you’ll even in the call center where you would think that people, everybody comes in in a queue and then we peel them off to the right. No, I mean, you’ve got to, you’ve got a group doing chat over here. You got a group in the other corner, answering emails, you got a group doing something over here, that’s for another department. And by the way, we’re not going to share all the contact information. I mean, there’s all kinds of silos that have been built and those silos have to really come down. And that is one thing our application does, is it kind of, we think of ourselves almost as an orchestrator of data and of process if you will, but those need to come down for really organizations to, uh, you know, see true benefit from AI. So while AI works in a perfect world, it works. Um, man, all my data was perfect of all my business processes were perfect. I’d be in good shape.

Jim Rembach: (19:57)
Okay. And then again, you probably foreshadowed shattered again because the next question I want to ask is how do I potentially stand out? How do I make a difference? How do I add more value to my organization? How do I advance my career when it comes to being a deep B2B digital marketer? So where is the opportunity to be that disruptor that’s going to make a difference?

Eric Burgess: (20:17)
Well, I think B2B marketers need to be, um, uh, you know, need to take risks. We need to take risks. We need to try different channels. We need to not assume that, um, email is the only way to go. Right. You know, we need to, we need to assume that people, uh, that, that, that, that people want to talk to businesses again, just like they talk to their friends and, and, and I mean, I really actually truly believe that. So I just think it’s, when look at, um, the idea of am I going to sit there and go through my email box or would I rather just, you know, doodle on my, you know, the last picture I took up and tell you what I’m interested in. I mean, that’s, I think that’s the kind of interaction that’s going to happen. It’s continuing, you know, the, the, the line between personal and business, as you can see right behind me.

Eric Burgess: (21:12)
And my, you know, my conduct is, is, especially with Kobe. It is, it is done. There is very little. And if you think about this too, I mean, even when we’re even before COVID, you know, people spend, I think, what is it, 60 to 70% of the people out there with smartphones the last 15 minutes of the day they’re on it. And the first thing in the morning they’re on it. And it that’s, that’s just not, I mean, that’s, first of all, that’s huge engagement. So that’s good for us marketers because we know what the behavior is, but secondly, you have to hit it with the things they want to engage with. Right? So I think taking risks, trying different channels, you know, try that video CFL interact, send, um, uh, you know, send a step by step video on how your product works. Uh, do some inter interaction where somebody can click on fields and ask questions and all that engage them, you know, uh, with something, you know, almost I know it’s digital, but almost physical.

Eric Burgess: (22:18)
And once you do that, you bring them into the conversation. And then once they’re in the conversation you got, and you can kind of drive them down that process. So I, if, if you know what I would encourage all marketers to do is take risks, try new things, stop, you know, just, just being the same old, boring email sender is just, I just don’t think it’s going to be enough to differentiate you. This is as much at this point in time. It’s not going to get you. It’s not going to get you noticed it’s not going to kind of get you over the finish line.

Jim Rembach: (22:49)
It’s a great point. I mean, I find myself we’re doing more and more work in interactive video design. And we have a system that allows, what you’re talking about to happen is people are engaging with the video and then we can actually take responses and we can collect that. And we collect information that goes into what are they looking at? How do they engage with it, all of those things. And I think you’re right. I mean, it’s, it’s the, we can’t keep pushing. We have to start looking at the conversational component, which is why I wanted to have you on the show. Okay. So now,

Eric Burgess: (23:18)
And just, and just to add in a gym, I mean, even again, um, I’m noticing even with, um, companies that typically do a lot of, um, they’re B2B, but they’re doing, um, um, the shows, right? Where are the shows going now? They’re going on zoom. Right. And I have seen, you know, and when you’re in those shows, um, it’s, you know, they’re polling the audience, right? What is this important to you? Is this it? I mean, what is that? That’s a conversation. Right? So again, there, I mean, that’s, I mean, I do think that, um, many companies have responded well to COVID and especially the people that did, you know, face to face group meetings, because it, it, it, they had to, and it forced them to get creative digitally, and, you know, they have

Jim Rembach: (24:12)
Out of scarcity. We must exactly right. Okay. So, uh, one of the things that we always have to convey, you know, contend with is, you know, constraints in regards to the resources that we have available to us. And so if I’m looking at where I am today, what do I need to do as a B to B digital marker to consider where I might reallocate, what should I take away from and put into? And again, you may have already answered this a little bit when you started talking about the whole email thing, but what specifically, if I was to take away from something, where would I put it? So I would, I would, um,

Eric Burgess: (24:49)
So I’ll, I’ll, I said earlier, take risks. So I’ll give you some risks. Okay. So I would, I would move some and to push marketing into the messaging spaces. Okay. Apple’s got Apple business now, right. People are going to start to get on that. Um, if you market to companies that perhaps might be based in other countries, um, messaging apps, like we chat, um, WhatsApp, Facebook, I mean, I wouldn’t say Facebook messenger, but, um, uh, we chat line Viber. All of these applications tend to be country specific. So China will have, we-chat why it’s going to be Japan. And the interesting thing is when business people travel with their phone, they don’t change the app. They’re using the messaging app, right. So if they’re using, when people come from China to here, they’re going to use we-chat, they’re gonna keep using it. If they, if, if you’re coming from Japan and you’re coming here or vice versa, whatever, if you’re used to using that app, you’re, you’re going to keep it.

Eric Burgess: (25:55)
So I, I really think that B to B marketers should look at some of the usage and the statistics around some of those apps and see if that makes sense. I think more and more businesses are, are getting on, on there. The other thing that I’m seeing too, is I’m seeing, and I I’ve seen this, and I think, um, this should be of note, uh, digital, uh, B2B marketers are, are, um, are, are advertising to gamers now, because as I said, you know, the, the, the millennials 35 and, and, you know, 35, 30, six, 37, what have they done all their lives? They’ve played video games. So, you know, I, I watched that very closely. I mean, my kids play Fortnite. They do other things online, mean I watched that very much. Um, you know, and, uh, I, you know, I think people are just starting to take advantage of it.

Eric Burgess: (26:48)
But to me, that’s a huge opportunity to go in there and really, uh, profile out because you you’ll see that the, you know, the gamers, people that are on some of these games are, are people working for companies that are buying stuff. So, um, you know, all of those types of, uh, you know, the mobile gaming advertisement, things like that. I mean, when you even look at the numbers, they’re going through the roof, um, and some of these games have figured out how to get the players to listen to some of these 30, 45 second conversations. And, um, and, and they are having an impact. I mean, I’m actually seeing the, um, the, the number of companies that are using that as a, uh, as a channel, um, uh, increase. So I think there’s a big opportunity to, to continue that. So I would move some of my, my budget in that category as well.

Eric Burgess: (27:48)
Um, again, I’m not saying, you know, I’m not guaranteeing anything, but I am saying that, um, it’s, it’s a risk, but it’s a, it’s, uh, it’s getting safer and safer all the time, because I’m seeing all kinds of, you know, even on Twitch and other of these outlets where other gamers watch gamers play, I would have thought in a million years, you know, 10 years ago, I would’ve just said, if somebody said, well, I’m going to create Twitch. Well, why? Because we’re watching other people play games who would want to do that. That’s like more, that just shows you how out of it I am. And, you know, interestingly, um, you know, who was on Twitch the other day, I’m sitting there, I’m watching it with my kid state farm. Now it is a being a secret button. Hey, the point is, this is a traditional industry. I mean, you can’t get more traditional than insurance and they’re, they’re on Twitch now.

Jim Rembach: (28:44)
I think that’s a great point, you know, open up your mind, open up your perspectives. Okay. So the other thing I like to look at is, Hey, take off all the guard rails, right? So let’s, we have, you know, unlimited budget, unlimited resources. We can do whatever the heck we want it to. Where would you spend that effort?

Eric Burgess: (29:03)
So, uh, you know, I think so, I don’t think you’ve been, just let go of the bread and butter. So I think you still gotta continue to do basic block and tackling. Okay. And that could be email content pay-per-click, you know, whatever. I just don’t, you know, you can’t ignore that, but you can add and add, you know, juicy layers, if you will, um, to the interaction. And those can be, and I, and I would spend more on things like you even spoke about, you know, some of the interactive videos. Um, I, I mean, I think podcasts are helpful. Um, I think any time, especially in a B to B sense, when you’re, when you’re building content with the idea that your content is going to help somebody, but it might not necessarily benefit you immediately, right. You’re doing it to actually help your fellow person.

Eric Burgess: (29:59)
Um, that goes a long way. When, when some, even when I’m being sold as a business, and somebody said, Hey, I’ve taken a look at your website, I’ve done my homework on you. I understand you. Right. Those kinds of interactions mean a lot. And so I would, I would, I would add a budget to that. I would do things like have people, you know, if you, if you have companies that you’re really want to target, um, you know, do things for them. So they understand that they’re important to you even before you’ve necessarily a, and the same with an industry, right. Even before you’ve necessarily closed a given account, but you’re still, you’re still thinking and acting and building content that these, you know, that your personas would want. Right. Um, and so I think, you know, I would add some, I would add budget to research and do other things so we can personalize the interactions that we’re doing with, with businesses, because just because they’re businesses doesn’t mean they don’t want to be, they don’t want to have personal interactions.

Eric Burgess: (31:07)
Um, and then I’d also do things, you know, as you said, you know, the videos, the, um, uh, you know, ways to engage the customer over messaging channels or apps, or, um, in, even in groups, even in online groups where you can bring some of your people together and have them discuss industry issues, things like that. Uh, I would put, I would put more budgets that in fact, I would probably assume that a lot of the face to face kind of stuff this year will continue to be slow. Right. And this will just be the way people will, uh, prefer to do it right. Just safer at this point. So, um, you know, the w so building channels in ways to take advantage of that, um, is another, uh, is another way I would, um, it’s another place I would spend my money. And interestingly enough, just as a little tidbit, um, I’ve talked to a lot of markers and say, it’s actually easier to get ahold of people right now, because a lot of them are, you know, as you can see, you know, they go out jogging in the morning and then they’re taking their shower and they’re sitting in front of their desk.

Jim Rembach: (32:19)
Right.

Eric Burgess: (32:20)
So instead of being on airplanes, there’s really no excuse. Um, and people start, you know, interact.

Jim Rembach: (32:26)
That’s very true. Okay. So let’s, let’s kind of, um, you know, pull with, like you said, kind of step back and look at all this and make it easy for us to, you know, focus and, and what we do. And by the way we do that is we say, we ask, you know, what should I be asking? Right. Um, and so for a B2B digital marketer, what should they be asking themselves right now?

Eric Burgess: (32:50)
So I always think, um, I, I always spend a lot of time, you know, dreaming about the personas a little bit. Right. Get putting myself in somebody else’s shoes empathizing, right. What are they going through? What are they, what are the things they’re reading? What are they thinking about? What are their problems? Right. All, you know, I just think there’s just nothing. I mean, people complain about, Oh, I guess I have, my persona is blah, blah. Well, guess what, you’re after Kelvin your personas, aren’t, they’re not valid. You gotta go back through and do, uh, you know, you gotta go back through and look at some of this stuff. Right. So, um, so that’s, that’s, uh, you know, kind of an important point. And so I would say, um, that’s one of the things you really should be doing and start with those basic personas, again, go through re map the customer journey based on the COVID reality. And, um, you know, get a sense of where, uh, you know, what your customers care about and whether you know where they’re coming from, at least over the next six to eight months. Now it might turn out that you can take the personas you did originally and use them again, cause everybody’s back in the office. But, um, you know, at least for the next eight to nine months, life is going to be a little different. We should take that into account.

Jim Rembach: (34:14)
That’s a good point, Eric, I’ve had a great time with you today. Can you please share the B2B DM gang, how they can get in touch with you?

Eric Burgess: (34:20)
Sure. Um, you can check out our website, www.blueleapblueleap.com. Or you can also email me at E Burgess is E B U R G E S S at [inaudible] dot com. So always happy to talk

Jim Rembach: (34:37)
Most definitely. And also too, if you want to get more insights like this and you want to share it, and you want other people, you, part of this B D M gain community so that we can all learn from one another, make sure you go to iTunes and you subscribe rate and review this episode, Eric Burgess, thanks for sharing your knowledge and wisdom, and we wish you the very best.

Eric Burgess: (34:57)
Thank you, Jim. Thank you very much.